Clarification on Ninja Tools

[9Tails 30]

I understand that Ninja Tools are going to be taking the trinket spot and this concerns me for one primary reason

Ninja Tool Based Shinobi.

I worry that people wanting to build their character to be like Ten-Ten or Aoi Rokusho won't have the freedom other Shinobi do because of Ninja Tools trinket classification. If we're going to classify Ninja Tools as trinkets then we need to ensure that there will be Ninja Tool Spells/Abilities despite some having individual items occupying the trinket slot, I understand how this might not be ideal because it could cause confusion (i.e: which Ninja Tools, the trinket or the spell, they're different.) but I still think it's something needed despite that - this might be something the team has already thought of, and I'd assume it is, but I still felt the need to ask for clarification or at the very least make it known that there is such an interest.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by 9Tails
mispell

[Harrington 136]

I don’t disagree. I don’t personally have information on this but I do believe our team has some ideas in place. A developer would probably be more help than me

[Vlad 251]

Ninja Tools will be taking the place of the trinket slots, limiting ninja to 2 at a time, and out of combat. These are meant to have combat altering effects that are continuously needed to be purchased or crafted. 

 

However, like most things in SS, we have a decent system on paper. Having 2 ninja tools won't restrict playstyles as those, because in the future we can introduce trinkets that are meant for such playstyles. For example, whenever puppetry is introduced, we will release "Chakra Threads" as a Ninja Tools- requiring you to equip 2 Chakra Threads as your trinkets to even be able to use puppetry. 

To directly answer your Ten Ten question.. most likely we will have like... "Great Ninja Tool Scroll" as a Ninja Tool which allows for using of ten ten style abilities, but reduces your chakra by an amount to balance the tradeoff of having higher level. ninja tools. Hope that made somewhat sense. 

 

Balance is a big thing we're trying to go for here. Jutsu have counterplay, pros will always have cons. You have to use your ninja mind to overcome your opponents. 

[9Tails 30]

2 minutes ago, Vlad said:

Ninja Tools will be taking the place of the trinket slots, limiting ninja to 2 at a time, and out of combat. These are meant to have combat altering effects that are continuously needed to be purchased or crafted. 

 

However, like most things in SS, we have a decent system on paper. Having 2 ninja tools won't restrict playstyles as those, because in the future we can introduce trinkets that are meant for such playstyles. For example, whenever puppetry is introduced, we will release "Chakra Threads" as a Ninja Tools- requiring you to equip 2 Chakra Threads as your trinkets to even be able to use puppetry. 

To directly answer your Ten Ten question.. most likely we will have like... "Great Ninja Tool Scroll" as a Ninja Tool which allows for using of ten ten style abilities, but reduces your chakra by an amount to balance the tradeoff of having higher level. ninja tools. Hope that made somewhat sense. 

 

Balance is a big thing we're trying to go for here. Jutsu have counterplay, pros will always have cons. You have to use your ninja mind to overcome your opponents. 

I wonder how well that will work, because theoretically you could have a "generic" build and then just have Great Ninja Tool Scroll and really negate the specialty of it - I think with significant trinkets like that you have to restrict other abilities and spells if it's equipped, otherwise it really loses it's gimmick.

[Vlad 251]

1 minute ago, 9Tails said:

I wonder how well that will work, because theoretically you could have a "generic" build and then just have Great Ninja Tool Scroll and really negate the specialty of it - I think with significant trinkets like that you have to restrict other abilities and spells if it's equipped, otherwise it really loses it's gimmick.

I agree, hence why I'm willing to cut the ninja's chakra significantly per ninja tool scroll. You are able to alternate ninja tools out of combat, so you will have to "git gud" if you want a broad skill with ninja tools in general (which is going to be an extensive skilltype)  

[9Tails 30]

1 minute ago, Vlad said:

I agree, hence why I'm willing to cut the ninja's chakra significantly per ninja tool scroll. You are able to alternate ninja tools out of combat, so you will have to "git gud" if you want a broad skill with ninja tools in general (which is going to be an extensive skilltype)  

Mhm, I just don't know if chakra limits will be able to be balanced well enough to make it reasonable, especially if people with "Gentle Fist" are around and can fuck with your chakra, and IMO that doesn't make much sense in the context of ninja tools like Ten-Ten's.

[Gogo 81]

1 minute ago, 9Tails said:

Mhm, I just don't know if chakra limits will be able to be balanced well enough to make it reasonable, especially if people with "Gentle Fist" are around and can fuck with your chakra, and IMO that doesn't make much sense in the context of ninja tools like Ten-Ten's.

Balancing certainly is a challenge, but it does get a lot of attention with specific staff dedicated for this solely. Rest assured that it will be well taken care of, and even if it happens to not go accordingly - we are very close with our community and are open for amendments. =]

[Vlad 251]

3 minutes ago, 9Tails said:

Mhm, I just don't know if chakra limits will be able to be balanced well enough to make it reasonable, especially if people with "Gentle Fist" are around and can fuck with your chakra, and IMO that doesn't make much sense in the context of ninja tools like Ten-Ten's.

The reason for the chakra cut is to directly prevent you from using big jutsu, and limiting the total amount of elemental jutsu you are able to use in that encounter. Hyuuga will directly counter most jutsu users if they can get within range, so the "jack of all trades" playstyle will not exist. There will be direct counters to playstyles you choose to a degree

[9Tails 30]

Just now, Gogo said:

Balancing certainly is a challenge, but it does get a lot of attention with specific staff dedicated for this solely. Rest assured that it will be well taken care of, and even if it happens to not go accordingly - we are very close with our community and are open for amendments. =]

If it's not good is it okay if we all pick up a stick and beat @Aetherweaver?

[9Tails 30]

Just now, Vlad said:

The reason for the chakra cut is to directly prevent you from using big jutsu, and limiting the total amount of elemental jutsu you are able to use in that encounter. Hyuuga will directly counter most jutsu users if they can get within range, so the "jack of all trades" playstyle will not exist. There will be direct counters to playstyles you choose to a degree

I understand that, but in the context of Ninja Tool Specialists and Hyuuga I don't know how accurate that is, I certainly understand the Hyuuga being a defensive powerhouse against projectiles, but as an offensive force I feel like they would particularly affect Ninja Tool Specialists with the chakra cut opposed to "full" chakra shinobi, which doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Sad Test Creature 93]

@9Tails

You dare question my mathematical abilities on an open forum?

I dont know what the fluffing blorg you fellas are talking about, but if you have a shield and someone throws pointy things at it, it wont be effective. If you however throw a boulder at the shield I am certain that you will cause some damage.
If your firepower cannot breach a defense. Bring more firepower.
 

Spoiler

Everything in game will be mathematically balanced, meaning that if you gitgud you should be able to wreck people.
Just know that all your worries are for naught since Godsk and I have come up with a super system that might be more super than super and that everything comes down to your skill in the end.
Nothing in the world has a true counter, nor does anything truely counter something.

Unless you have a very big bomb, I don't care how much of a demi-god you are, how many moons you can destroy or how big your belly kitten is. If the bomb is big enough you better get going or get ready for the skeletron wars.

P.S.
Dont listen to Vlado the Mado, I'm the one fizzling with the numbers in the end lol

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Aetherweaver

[9Tails 30]

5 hours ago, Aetherweaver said:

@9Tails

You dare question my mathematical abilities on an open forum?

I dont know what the fluffing blorg you fellas are talking about, but if you have a shield and someone throws pointy things at it, it wont be effective. If you however throw a boulder at the shield I am certain that you will cause some damage.
If your firepower cannot breach a defense. Bring more firepower.
 

  Hide contents

Everything in game will be mathematically balanced, meaning that if you gitgud you should be able to wreck people.
Just know that all your worries are for naught since Godsk and I have come up with a super system that might be more super than super and that everything comes down to your skill in the end.
Nothing in the world has a true counter, nor does anything truely counter something.

Unless you have a very big bomb, I don't care how much of a demi-god you are, how many moons you can destroy or how big your belly kitten is. If the bomb is big enough you better get going or get ready for the skeletron wars.

P.S.
Dont listen to Vlado the Mado, I'm the one fizzling with the numbers in the end lol

 

 I'm mostly just worried about this ⬇ ⬇ ⬇

On 11/3/2020 at 9:14 AM, 9Tails said:

Mhm, I just don't know if chakra limits will be able to be balanced well enough to make it reasonable, especially if people with "Gentle Fist" are around and can fuck with your chakra, and IMO that doesn't make much sense in the context of ninja tools like Ten-Ten's.

I just feel like it would be a strange counter to Ninja Tool users. I can understand it in the context of deflecting projectiles but I don't like the idea of Ninja Tool specialists being chakra limited compared to other builds especially when things like gentle fist exist, it just doesn't make much sense from a "canon"/logic perspective, it feels like a strange weakness for them to have -- I'd much prefer if they just had longer cooldowns on their tools, or if their tools just required more chakra rather than them just being capped.

[Sad Test Creature 93]

9 hours ago, 9Tails said:

 I'm mostly just worried about this ⬇ ⬇ ⬇

I just feel like it would be a strange counter to Ninja Tool users. I can understand it in the context of deflecting projectiles but I don't like the idea of Ninja Tool specialists being chakra limited compared to other builds especially when things like gentle fist exist, it just doesn't make much sense from a "canon"/logic perspective, it feels like a strange weakness for them to have -- I'd much prefer if they just had longer cooldowns on their tools, or if their tools just required more chakra rather than them just being capped.

Alright, so I'm gonna compare the 3 types of magical ninjas to Aquariums.

Taijutsu users are Hobbyists Starter Aquarium
Ninjutsu users are the Fish enthusiasts Aquarium
Genjutsu users are the big Aquariums from that fish tank show I cannot mention due to copyright reasons.

When smacking people in the face, you dont need a lot of ninja magic since, ye know, you smack people in the face. HOWEVER, when you fancy smack things in their face you use more ninja magic than just hitting people, although not as much since you are just putting ninja magic on a hand. In your example, you summon stabby things and other stuff against people, although if I remember correctly, sometimes blood from the finger is used as a catalyst to easier perform large scale summonings and since the blood from your heart is linked to your fingers (in asian beliefs I think), it is the second most prominent catalyst for ninja magic casting.

However, when you start magic big balls of fire or make a clone of yourself with ninja magic, you need more ninja magic since you are making things on a larger scale and the overall power is, as I see it, much higher. Its like a quantity vs quality thing? As I mentioned, if you dont have enough firepower, bring more firepower.
Ninjutsu can be small scale too and some people do not specialize in large scale jutsus like Emo Boy and fancy fox, but their fish tanks are large as heck too. But the guy who always has a cigaret in his mouth is utilizing small scale ninja magic effieciently and so is the boy with a dog, using ninja magic for body enhancements instead of doing big fancy things.

And then we have the people who manipulate the brains of other people (Which, as I might add, is the most complex thing at the moment) and customizing sometimes entire worlds or manipulating the outside world from the perspective brain which I assume require the largest amount of ninja magic other than the nation-scale ninja magic Ninjutsu users does.

But although the Aquariums mentioned earlier are meant for different purposes, a hobbyist can get a humongous fish tank, that is larger than the enthusiasts Aquariums, but its the same way around. In the show of professional Aquariums, they make small fancy ones too and sometimes a tank that is on the scale of an entire room (if you are poor lol.)

Aquariums for different purposes but all of them can be found in small and large scales.

 

BonBon hair girl, TenTen? She summons a shizzle ton of water in one episode I believe, that stuff takes ninja magic and alot to boot.

Things will not be balanced by saying "You get less ninja magic by using utility items", That is not how this will work since that is stupid and everything has access to silly paper scrolls and hidden weapons if they can find and purchase it.
 

Since some people are specialized in using tools, they are most likely gonna suffer in other areas and get boosted in that department, how its going to be done - I ain gonna tell ya, just trust in the Aether my dud.

[9Tails 30]

Nerd.

[Sad Test Creature 93]

8 minutes ago, 9Tails said:

Nerd.

Spoiler

8 minutes ago, 9Tails said:

Nerd.

 

 

[Vlad 251]

If "advanced" ninja tools were not limited, they would become mandatory for everyone to have if their only drawback was longer cooldowns. We want to prevent this "mandatory" or "min max" gameplay, or at least curb it in the design stage as much as possible. One alternative we explored, and actually moved on in the early stages of development was an Advanced Ninja Tools mastery, but we were just not able to create enough of a unique identity for the mastery to justify it over all the others (same for Senju bloodline at the moment). 

One way to keep the advanced ninja tools in to some degree would be in an advanced form of the trinket slots, which is at the moment the more leading philosophy, but nothing in regards to them is fully set in stone as we are still building out the basic ones. I hope this offered a little more insight as to what our goals and thinking behind it is. A lot of things are canon, but for the sake of a somewhat balanced game we're opting for some decision to curb that.